This transcript was generated automatically and may contain small errors.

Bryce Giron Mathern: Welcome to the Man for Real Podcast. We are here to celebrate men as well as talk about how all men can do better and lead our world to a healthier place. Get ready to get real. Hello everyone. Thanks for being here today. I’m talking today with Jason Lang, founder of Evolutionary Men. Jason leads groups of men throughout the Colorado area. And today we’re gonna be talking about the power of men coming together to support each other. Jason Lang, welcome to the podcast. So pumped to be here. Thank you. You’re bringing the juice today. I’m appreciating that. So as I start with a lot of my people that I interview and guests on here, I just wanted to get a sense of you and your journey as a man and kind of how that’s unfolded for you. You’ve kind of moved in this place of being a man, a leader of men. Kind of maybe some of how that’s come about. And so yeah, just maybe jump in wherever it won’t feels important to start. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think for Like a lot of people, it starts at home. It starts when I was a kid. So yeah, I was raised outside Chicago in the suburbs, kind of lower middle class, born in 1980, and really had pretty much all of my basic security needs met, right? We had stable housing, we had food, we got to do, you know, some fun adventures and stuff. And I think like a lot of kids, I didn’t really kind of realize things were a little different until I started getting out of my family and house. So for me, it all kind of coalesced when I became a teenager. I’m heterosexual in my case. So I started to get really interested in women during puberty. And that was where I just felt off, right? I just I couldn’t talk to women. I’d get super up in my head and really anxious. If I got physically, if I got close to them, I would kind of get like sweaty and tight and Simultaneously, you know, I was a bit of a computer nerd. I was a little bit more in my head, kind of lived in video games and computers. First year of high school, I kind of met my first guy friends, started to get to know them, and just noticed they related to each other differently. They would horse around, like literal horseplay. They would touch each other. And so I’m feeling all this pain, not being able to connect with women at all. I start seeing my friends begin to do it. I’m feeling Really tight and often anxious in my body. And then I start to notice, you know, the men in my life are acting differently than I do. And then, you know, I often tell this story. I had this experience when I was like maybe a junior in high school. And my friends and I were in like an environmental club for high school or something. So we went to a Sierra student coalition kind of summer camp out in Virginia. And so my one friend’s dad was going to like drive us all out in the minivan. And, you know, I didn’t quite connect the dots on this. At the time, but later it was like so obvious in retrospect. So they come to my house to pick me up, and my mom walks me down to the curb because you’re kind of just supposed to do that. It was the first time I was really leaving home for seven days. And right before I get in the car, like we hug and it’s super awkward. It just feels really weird. And then I get in the car and I just kind of mentally note, like, that was weird. And then I go on my way. And then my pain just continued right through high school, through college. I didn’t even kiss a girl until I was in college, didn’t have sex till my mid to late twenties, and was just really suffering. I was really numbed out, addicted to porn, was drinking a lot at the time, and essentially by the end of college, kind of had the sense like I need help. I don’t know how to do this. There’s gotta be a better way to be. And that kind of kicked off my journey, brought ⁓ out to Colorado for the first time and got me into like a transformational world. And then it all really kind of all the dots started to connect. When I got into my first men’s groups and my first somatic therapy. And my first deep experience was was with one of my mentors. And I had been seeing a talk therapist for like a year because my company paid for it. But I was, you know, pretty mental. I was pretty sophisticated and good at kind of sharing just enough to feel like we were doing something, but not really moving the ball. Yeah. And then I’m in this men’s circle with this kind of guy who leads far more deep somatic stuff. And within 10 minutes, I’m on my back, my arms are literally shooting up in the air, and I’m saying, Hold me, hold me. And I’m crying like a two-year-old, just bawling. Yeah. And I got up from that and I was like, What was that? Like, I have no idea what that was. And, you know, started to put the pieces together. And then where it connects back to this high school story is that was the first time, as far as my memory could go back, I could remember touching my mom or being touched by her. So, you know, I know it happened when I was quite young, but basically kind of toddler years on, there was just no physical touch in my house, let alone emotional touch. And so lo and behold, you know, with the benefit of work, I realized, ⁓ my God, I’ve been walking around all these years, and there’s this screaming two-year-old who’s desperately scared and wants to be touched, trying to relate to all these women. And It’s not exactly the sexiest energy for a woman to, you know, feel in a man’s nervous system. And so that really just kind of kickstarted my whole journey. And I was all in on body-based stuff and going into men’s groups in particular and learning just to share, to be seen, to talk, to touch, to be in connection. And that really has never stopped, right? The journey just keeps going. But it was in Colorado in my twenties I got into my first men’s group. And that really changed my life. Just kind of more. probably than anything else, any of the plant medicines or therapies. There was just something about the consistency of showing up in a group with nowhere to hide, right? Because they just knew me, they loved me, knew what I was up to, they knew my games. And it really propelled my life forward. So much so that my first group in Colorado was part of what motivated me to move out to LA and pursue a career in filmmaking and like just go for it. Cause they were like, man, if you want to do it, that’s the place to do it. Not here. Right. And I got out there and I kind of went for it and I dropped off the face of men’s groups and men’s works and it didn’t go so well. I was out there for like two or three years, like totally overweight from crafty food, not taking care of myself. And I just realized like, this is a structure I need to thrive. Like I don’t do well without it. And so I got inspired, met some guys, started a new group out there, and that really propelled me forward in some substantial ways. And then Really, just the transition to this was I just wouldn’t shut up about it. Like I was in authentic relating communities and stuff. I was just my men’s group. I was doing this my men’s group. I love my men. So all these guys, you know, started asking me, Can I come? Could we come to your group? And it was just eight of us at the time. And we met in one of our members, he was a therapist. So we met in his office and it was, you know, it couldn’t fit more than eight guys. So I was like, no, we’re a closed group, like, can’t do it. But it just inspired me that I was like, okay, well, this has been so meaningful for me. And at the time I’d actually moved more into like tech coding work and was like self-taught and could kind of do it. And it just stressed me out so much. Like sitting at a computer, being in my head, I would get done with that and I would just feel so awful. And then I started to notice I would spend two hours with men in circle and I would get done. And I’d be like, this energy, right? Like I came in with. I was fuck yeah, let’s do this. I love life. I got energy. I was like, wouldn’t that be an interesting if I could get Paid to do the thing that brought me energy rather than extracted it from me. Yeah. And so I just started leading men’s groups off of meetup.com in my living room in LA in 2017, just like twice a month. Drop in groups. LA was amazing because such a huge range of men ended up showing up and I got to know men and learn about facilitation. And then I was like, I like this. So I went out and got some training and kind of pivoted. And it’s been a A long eight, nine years since then, but it seems to finally be coalescing into okay, I think I could do this for a living. This is great. Wow. Okay. Okay. Well, there’s a lot there. I I really appreciate your clarity. Obviously, you’ve had to have a lot of thought to be in the position you are and gone through a lot. I’m curious, like so there was this moment in that men’s group, that like awakening of like, whoa, I’ve got this two year old in there that’s needed some love. How is that like so you went through a lot of They did some somatic work, somatic psychotherapy, we’re in men’s groups. I just kinda wonder about like how that shows up in your life now. You know, now you’ve sort of figured out how to be with women and some some degree, you know, like that’s worked itself out, it’s I imagine. I’m just curious how it’s been for you now. Is that sort of sort of healing some of those family wounds? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I have two kids now, so the great the great joy is getting to do that pretty differently. And we have lots of touch and lots of cuddling and Lots of closeness and huge emotions constantly being expressed in the in the best ways. So that’s been deeply healing for me. And ⁓ I have a son now who’s sixteen months old. And so that in particular is really just seeing him and getting to re-experience life as a young boy again is just magical. And then yeah, with my wife, you know, it’s been a a powerful thing to to really center touch and closeness since since we met, you know. That was something I was much more aware of and you know. Even maybe a relationship to before her hadn’t fully disentangled my just touch needs from sexual needs. They often got smashed together, like I think they do with a lot of men. And by the time I got to her, I was much more clear that hey, sometimes can you just lay on top of me? Like I just the pressure, just the feeling, it’s just so good. It just does something for me, right? And like my body can’t quite get enough. So I’m I’m much more conscious of it and. I’m conscious of it in the sense that that part of me still lives inside me, right? Coming from a household of neglect in a sense, I can get so focused on work or trying to take care of my family that it’s easy for me to not be present for my family. And, you know, much less these days. But you know, a couple of years ago, there’d be times I would realize, ⁓ my God, I’m doing the thing my parents do. I haven’t even touched my wife in two days, just to like walk up to her and like say hi. I would just like go into this autopilot, which was kind of a slightly different version of of that, but it still lives in me. And I have to be really conscious of how quickly I can go to no touch in a sense, because it’s kind of was my baseline for so long. Yeah. And I can survive there, but I have to like really consciously kind of bring myself back. I mean, luckily with kids now, it’s pretty hard to not. They’re just all over me all the time. ⁓ yeah. But I do have to put that attention on my intimate relationship of like, ⁓ yeah, I like I need this, she needs this. And sometimes I’ll just forget if I’m left to my own devices until it like builds up. And then I’m like, ooh, we’re not in a good plate. ⁓ no wonder why. I literally haven’t approached my wife and gotten close to her in like two days. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think the thing that really grabs my attention there is that autopilot or that sort of zombie mode, or just like I’m just shut down. I’m just kind of in like some kind of industrious state where I’m just like getting shit done. I I know that so well in my own life. I think that’s where I you know in my work with men, it’s like they really want to connect. And then but they there’s also like, you know, a lot of pressure, a lot of static around like their identity as a provider, as a you know, taking care of their families together, their lives. And they get sort of lost in that energy of just like work, work, work, work, work, work, do, do, do, do, do do, do, do. So I don’t know, it’s it’s interesting to me. How the struggle I feel in even in my own life, that tension of like being present, being engaged, being close, touching all those affection, all those things. And also this like real intense energy that says, You gotta fix the fence. You gotta, you know, mow the lawn. What are you doing? Come on, you know, that’s so it’s like that’s very real for me too. And so it’s just like it’s and I think it’s like sometimes I think it’s like the tension point is like either, you know, you’re not being a man unless you’re like Doing these provider things or the other side of it, which is like you’re not being a good man if you’re not connecting with your family. And I think the thing that I’m finding is that it’s always a tension point. It never gets worked out exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I would totally agree. And I mean, part of where my life’s been moving is, you know, a principle really of if all my work, if all my hard, industrious work isn’t creating more opportunities to spend time with my family, yeah, I’m not on I’m not actually on track. Right. Right. Because I can feel the part of me that wants to scale, scale, get bigger to hire people. Totally. And then, you know, luckily because of the work I do, I work with a lot of those guys. Right. And they’re like, ⁓ it’s not so glamorous. No. Right. I am busy all the time and I have so much money, it’s stressful. What do I do with it? You know, managing it, all that kind of stuff. So I’m kind of settling into this groove, you know, for me as my my kids are are six and about fifteen months old of like Man, I got this short window, right? You yeah, I know your kids are a little older. Like every man I know that has older kids, they’re like, dude, it goes fast. Like it goes so fast. And so I I feel blessed because of having wise men around me. Like, okay, yeah, the these are the days to make the most of. So work as hard as I can and got to prioritize the time with the kids, right? Because it, you know, you wake up and suddenly they’re a different kid. It’s like, wow, you’re not the little child anymore. But that tension, you know, I think it’s really real and it’s a big burden, you know, a lot of men carry and around the providership. And sometimes I think some of the work I do with men is just the mistake we make of, ⁓ I’m gonna do all of that so I can achieve a certain amount of something, so then I can spend time with my family. Right. And we run out of time. It almost never comes that way. It’s like, you know, it makes me think of the the whole idea of. You gotta take the mini retirements. Like, ⁓ you know, you could save it all up for when you’re eighty and can barely move. Or yeah, can you can you take three, four weeks a year and actually travel and enjoy? And there’s a way I’m trying to like make my family life a little bit like that instead of waiting for the the dream on the horizon of ⁓ I’ll just have all the systems in place and the money will be rolling in. It’ll be so easy to spend time with them and it’s probably never gonna be that way. So start spending time now. You gotta do it right now. Yeah, no, I think that’s Very true. And it’s a struggle for me because I I think I feel like it’s like yeah, just that tension point I guess I’m describing, but it’s like, wow, I feel so there’s just a way that my providing this, providing element is so intertwined with my sense of like being a good man. And so like when I’m doing the things that are doing that, and the thing is it’s like it’s always like this question of like a little bit more. I can make a little bit more. I could make a little bit more. That’s like such an illusion. It’s like such a it’s just I I think how our systems work. It’s like, ⁓ yeah, but you can have little bit more, a little bit more. And I think like that’s the thing that allures me into this sense of like, yeah, that if I just do this and this and this and then I’ll have a little bit more, that’ll make it better. And it’s just not a little bit more time with my kids is gonna be way more satisfying in the long run. Yeah, right. I I mean it is such a slippery slope and it’s that that kind of fantasy of once I X, then I’ll finally why and There’s just no guarantee it’s ever gonna come. Right. That’s the other thing too, right? Especially as we hit middle age and beyond. Like there’s just no guarantees. So the I guess the truth I’ve had to set a lot is, man, I just gotta I gotta find a way to do both. Yeah. Right. To kind of keep growing and providing, take care of myself and be with my family. And that that’s a challenge for a lot of guys. And I feel lucky because I’m so well supported by incredible men in my life. And then, you know, as I imagine you see, there’s a lot of guys who aren’t. And so they’re, you know, carrying that burden of the whole family system and trying to do it. And they got nowhere to go to to be held in a sense. And that is, I think, one of the real big challenges in this day and age. Yeah, I know. I think I totally agree. I think I think it’s getting worse. I think it’s really getting worse. The loneliness factor. And men, I see this with men, you know, they they have a family or they’re married and then that marriage ends, then they’re seeing their kids half time and they they have no They have nothing else in their life. They have no friends. They have no community. They have colleagues, but it’s all within that context of work and it’s not really any, there’s no depth to it. And they are just like lost. They are lost and terrified. So yeah, I think it is a really, really deep struggle today. I’m curious to maybe talk. So, you know, you’re talking about this as we’re going, but just like a little bit more about your work in evolutionary men and what that is like for you. Like what what do you like trying to do with men. Like, you know, I mean obviously depends on the person. But like do you have like some general principles, some general ideas of what you bring in your work with men? Yeah. I mean, I would say ⁓ my mission statement and my organization have kind of summed it into every man should be in a men’s group. So it’s about getting men into men’s groups. Like as I look at the whole world and all the different ways to support and serve, you know, love and consciousness, I’m like, that’s the leverage point I think I could have the most impact on. That could really change things fast, right? What happens when men get together in small groups of six to twelve men who care about them and track them? That’s it. And I’m a pretty big fan of peer-led groups. So I’m more and more getting inspired to teach men how to lead and start their groups and kind of decentralize the model just because that’s what I was lucky to kind of find in myself. And there’s a certain type of ownership that comes from like, we’re not paying anyone for this group. This this is ours. Right. It doesn’t need to be here. No one can take it away from us. And, you know, some guys aren’t actually up for that because it also creates a lot of responsibility for, you know, really participating. But I’ve been very, very inspired to just launch those types of groups and really, you know, I do some private coaching. I do it. I enjoy it. But groups are just my favorite place. That that’s my favorite place to work with men. I see men, in my opinion, grow faster there. So everything I do now is basically a version of some kind of men’s group. It’s it’s like men’s group for dating and relationship, men’s group for deep shadow work, men’s group just to experience a men’s group, men’s group to learn how to run men’s groups. So that’s kind of where I’m just putting all of my weight in essence in that that’s certainly what changed me and where, you know, I think a lot of men are falling through the cracks, like you said, in that, you know, there was this. Stat you maybe know that blew me away when I saw it last year and just totally reformatted my even my judgments of men. And it was, it was up in Canada, right? And they it was like a retrospective on men who committed suicide. And it was something like 80% of the men had actually reached out in the year before for some kind of mental health support. So it wasn’t this story of they never reached out or da-da-da-da. They did, there was just something about what was there. That didn’t quite move the needle for them. And just my totally, you know, unresearched bias and judgment is community. Like they’re missing community and belonging in being part of something. And I see this as guys get, you know, brought into groups. Two things I say that most men I know crave and that a group can provide are a sense of purpose and belonging. My purpose meaning it really matters if I’m there. Right. People notice when I’m not there. My gift, my wisdom, my insight, my experience can be the thing that really changes one of my brothers’ lives in a moment. If I just slow him down or look him in the eye or whatever that might be. And so there’s deep purpose there. And then there’s that sense of belonging. Like I’m part of something. We are something. Right. And I think without that, men get sick mentally, emotionally, physically, and get really, really lost. So You know, I’m just fired up to get guys into groups in any way possible. Yeah. I think the thing, and I think you’re kind of speaking to this, like I think that belonging thing is really huge. And especially for kids who grew up in families where they didn’t feel like they did belong. You know? Yes. I see that a lot. Belonging is kind of one of those things that I feel like it’s getting more attention today. But I think in my early part of my practice, it was something that just kept coming up. And I didn’t, it wasn’t something I knew about or like studied in my you know, therapy training or anything like that. But it was like, wow, it’s like, what’s it like to grow up in a family and feel like an outsider the whole time? You know? Yeah. So that that’s like this wound, right? And then and then so you bring that into the world. And, you know, as men, we’re also trained to some degree around being self reliant and taking care of ourselves. And so those two things kind of hit and you’re it’s almost unfamiliar to feel like you belong. It’s like that’s not a thing you’re looking for because you’re just like, that’s not normal. And what’s normal is I don’t belong. So I think like what you’re talking about is really important because I think men I in my experience in men’s group, and I haven’t I’m running one right now, but what I see is this like spark that starts to help these guys. They come in and they’re a little bit like, you know, deer in the headlights of like, Okay, here we are. I’m a guy, you’re guys. What are we doing here? Let’s we talk about sports. Is that that’s that’s easy? Yeah. And suddenly it goes deep. And then they’re like, ⁓ shit. Okay. I don’t really know how to talk about this. ⁓ but then over time there’s this like settling and they just like they just I can feel it. They start to feel like they belong in this and they matter. You know, people start calling each other out, you know, in gentle, reasonable ways, but they start calling each other out and it’s like, ⁓ you’re calling me out because I matter to you. And that’s like a big shift. And I think even for a lot of men, you know, in a way. I think some for some of them they feel like they matter in their, you know, in their primary relationships, maybe with their kids, but it’s different when a man you matter to a man. There’s something about it that’s very fundamentally different. And I’m just sort of spouting off here, but I just wonder if you could speak to that. Like what’s so different about a men’s group? Cause I know I I know I know what I think. I’m really curious because this is your jam. So I’m curious what you think. Yeah, it’s the you know, part of it I think is just the unique texture of masculine love. And so our our culture, we talk a lot about love kind of more in the feminine motherly way, but there is a unique nutrient and texture to the masculine version of it, which is I don’t need shit from you. Right. Like literally, I don’t need anything from you, like your kids or your family, or I just care about you. Like that’s that’s often it. It’s just like I don’t need anything from you and I care about you. And it actually hurts to see you suffer. And you’ve told me what you care about and what you love. And when I see you not living up to that, I want to let you know. And I I actually think, you know, there’s a deep I call it the spinach in the teeth, the the thing you were saying. There’s like a deep craving a lot of men have. They don’t realize till they get it that moment of, you know, Terry Real calls it the care frontation. Like, I love you so much. I’m gonna call you forward around this thing. Yeah. Dude, you got spinach in your teeth. You look like an Asshole. And you’re like, ⁓ real. But then you’re like, ⁓ my God, I’ve been walking around like this all day. No one told me, but you did. You care about me. I feel loved, actually. That you were willing to give me that challenging feedback and help me stay aligned to who I want to be. And I think men just some of them don’t even know what they’re missing until they experience it. And then it’s like, you know, I think, like you said, they settle and then it’s like a battery gets plugged back in. Yeah. And they’re like, wait a second. Yeah. I’ve been running on fumes for three decades. And it turns out there’s this like well of love and support that really the the group, deepest groups I lead, that’s all it becomes. It’s just loving presence. Just yeah, we’re here, we love you, we’re present with you. What’s going on? And it’s just like men come back alive with wow, there’s guys here that care about me. They’re not really needing anything from. From me in the same way my co-workers do, or my kids do, or even my beloved wife does, right? She wants a certain type of me there. Guys in group are like, dude, I get it. Right? Yeah, just be depressed today. Like it’s okay. Be be angry today. Like, I don’t mind. Like we have so, in my experience, we have so much space for each other because we know what it’s like to be there, right? It’s just that unique thing. And there’s something so relaxing I’ve seen in guys and freeing about when they really enter into that space. Particularly once they drop below the kind of typical masculine competition man box size. And it’s like, ⁓ shit, like I can actually be real here and these guys aren’t going to attack me. Or the one that really a lot of my guys struggle with is, ⁓ yeah, I d I don’t want to share my sadness or my fear or my grief or my anger, you know, or my shame. Cause I don’t want to burden you with that. I don’t want to burden you with that. Why would you guys want to, you know, And then when they have the experience, right? This is the thing I tell guys, like be sitting in circle. Some other man will be having just like a deep process, doing some work, just owning his truth, feeling something deeply. And then afterwards, they’re like, ⁓ my God, thank you so much for being so real and so vulnerable. And like that was so amazing to witness. And then it’s like, well, you realize that’s how other people experience you when you’re sharing your stuff. And they’re like, wait, what? It’s like, yeah, no, like when you get real, it’s a gift to everyone. And Seeing that light bulb go off is just one of my favorite moments in a group where guys go from that like, ⁓ I can’t share this. I don’t want to burden the guys to, ⁓ my God, this happened to me today. And then other guys are like, this happened to me today. And it actually vitalizes the group. It connects everyone. It makes it makes it feel alive. Yeah. No, I love the way of describing it. I remember in one of my men’s groups, I was I was the so-called leader, but I didn’t lead from any sort of like, you know, objective. Therapy person. I was like taking notes. How are you guys doing today? I was just part of the group, right? It was just a group member. So we would check in and I would just start talking. I’d be like, Well, you know, this and that. And I’d just like, yeah, it’s my things going on with my family and this and that. And I’d just be really fine, authentic, just talking about my experience. And I remember one time this guy, he was pretty new to the group, he just said, Wow, if you can say all that, it just makes me feel like I can say it too. And I was like, Yeah. Bingo. So it is. It’s like it’s almost like permission. Cause I think guys want to do this. But there’s like there’s this sh sort of, I don’t know what to call, like a some sort of blocking or or shield or something that says it’s not safe. These guys are gonna have a hard time with it. They’re gonna feel burdened. They’re gonna shame you. They’re gonna like make fun of you. And I’m sure a lot of guys have had that experience. But actually, you know, especially now as we’re getting older and more mature, I feel like it’s not like that. Like guys just want to feel that. They want to feel that. Like, yeah, I really want hear how you’re doing. Yeah. I think there’s such a hunger for men. And then when they I say this all the time, once a man gets into an environment where the structure and agreements help him feel safe and he gets that permission, turns out men have plenty of feelings to share and say. Like once they get into that, it’s just a lot of times they don’t feel it. And you know, where where I’ll often teach my guys then that kind of hooks in some of the masculine stuff in a good way is that even beyond permission. It’s an act of leadership because every time you come forward, just like you were doing at the beginning of those groups, you make it easier for every other man to. Yeah. And so you’re actually serving your brothers by leading with vulnerability and transparency and realness and rawness. So you might think, ⁓ I’m being so selfish taking all this time right now, but often I see it all the time in groups. Like, I wasn’t going to share this. But then I heard you share and you talked about it. And yeah, now I feel like I can share it. So my God, here’s the actual thing happening. And the chain that, you know, starts to happen in a group over time is incredible because it just keeps deepening and deepening and deepening. Yeah. It’s also, I remember in this group, we would often focus kind of on one person a week. Yeah. We would kind of go around everyone share. And then I would just kind of like be tuning into everybody and I’d be like, Like to know a little bit about what’s going on with you. And it was interesting because there was never a point where the guys were like, Well, I didn’t get to share today. What about me? It was just like everyone was like, Yeah, what’s going on with you, dude? We want to be here for you. And it was just like so beautiful. I was like, and it wasn’t even like a part of the principles or the ideas of the group. It wasn’t like, okay, we’re going to focus on more that it just naturally kind of happened. But it was also so cool that everyone was like, Yeah. Like the whole group could kind of feel it, like this guy’s going through it. He checked in. He needs something tonight. He’s kind of maybe a little choked up. He’s struggling and he needs us tonight. And it was like everyone was like, We’re here, man. We’re here. And it would just like the, you know, like we didn’t actually get out of our seats or do anything, but we just like energy would just coalesce around this person and be like, We’re here for you, man. We’re here for you. It was just incredible. I love that. And I I see that too. And sometimes I even have guys tell me, you know, occasionally they are going through stuff. And actually one of the great gifts of the group is Man, sometimes it’s nice for an hour or two to just put my attention on someone else and just not have to think about all my stuff. Because it’s not going anywhere. It’ll be there. And there’s this like sometimes freedom and liberation from just, yeah, you need it tonight. And I’m here for it. And that in itself can be energizing for some men instead of just kind of staying in their own muck, you know, like so many of us. I certainly do sometimes, just ruminating on my things. Then it’s like, ⁓ my God, I’m so with this person. And then I come out of and I’m like, ⁓ that was blissful, actually, to just totally be present with my brother, who was, yeah, very much in it tonight and and needed us. Yeah. I’m curious, like for you and your in your work, like what happens for men where the group doesn’t work? Like they struggle and they have to drop out, or they just they go a couple of times, maybe they even go for a while and they’re just like, can’t do this. I don’t know. You know, because often for me they would drop. And say, I can’t, you know, they just make some reason, like, I can’t come. I’m not the right time. It’s too much money, whatever. And I just wonder if you have a more deeper insight into like what happens for those men when they just are like, I can’t do it. Can’t do it. Yeah. Some guys are, you know, honestly just scared away by depth. Yeah. In my experience. Like they just they’re like, Man, I’m just not ready to go there and do that yet. And there’s fear about what would happen if I went there, right? That happens sometimes. Related to that, but a little deeper, something I’ve honestly seen, which sounds a little woo-woo, is sometimes in some of the really deep groups I create in particular, the guys are just not ready to receive that much love. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like this is here, it’s freely offered. You don’t have to do anything to receive it. Like, can be such a short circuit for some guys of like, I’ve never received before in my life, and like. And an accelerator at the same time I’ve seen too is when guys really start to let support in, their lives change. Yeah. Like that that, you know, you don’t stay in the stuck of relationship or the job you hate or the thing that sometimes, you know, I’ve been there honestly myself that it’s just so I like, you know, I’m kind of I get to complain about it. I don’t like this thing. I don’t like this thing. I don’t like this thing. In a group over time, you know, that doesn’t last as long. When I’m just being flooded with love, all my excuses often go out the door. Or they’re what’s the worst that’s gonna happen? What are you gonna fail? And I’m like, yeah, and then I’ll live on the street. And they’re No, you’re not gonna live on the street. You’re gonna live with one of us. And I’m like, crap, I have no more excuses. Right. Like, that’s confronting, you know, in that same kind of care way. So sometimes I just see guys who they just haven’t quite maybe scaffolded enough to learn how to receive support and love without any strings attached. What do you mean when you say scaffold? That’s kind of I like that word, but I’m curious. I don’t know if a lot of my students know what that means. Just that, you know, like someone like me, I wasn’t particularly wired for reception of touch, of goodwill, of emotions, of presence. And so other people I know just like, yeah, bring it. And I had to like like I was going to the gym, like, okay, you’re gonna you know, I used to get this all the time. Someone would compliment me and I would just like you know, like so many men just batted away. I was like, ⁓ no, Like you don’t know, you don’t understand. I didn’t really do great. And I had to actually build my capacity, you know, to to stand, take a deep breath and say, Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. I received that. I’ve worked really hard. And it’s like now I can take that in and actually let it in my body. But it took took a certain amount of reps, right? And for some guys, you know, they just need some time. And sometimes if a group goes a little deeper than their natural rate, it can just be a little too much for the system sometimes, is in my experience. And I try to let those guys know, you know, it’s totally okay. And you might find another container or another group that just aligns better with you. So don’t give up on the whole thing. Just, you know, find a good fit. Yeah. I can so relate to that receptivity or that opening up to like I it took me so long. I think it this you’re describing of like when someone would compliment me. I was so un it made me so uncomfortable. So uncomfortable. I would jump all around trying to deflect. And now, you know, and I worked on it for probably my 30s. And now it’s like I just like fully receive it. ⁓ my God, thank you. That feels so good to hear that. Appreciate it. And then there’s this another level that I’m finding in my relationship with my wife where it’s like she loves me so much that sometimes I’m just like, like. There’s like another level of like, ugh, it’s poking at some stuff in there that’s really soft, like really raw. And I’m like, ⁓ thanks, baby. But God, that’s really intense. And so I think what ends up happening is there’s some part of me that like almost like narrates this story of like, she doesn’t really care about me. She’s just, yeah, she cares about our kids and our dog, but not really me, you know. So I’m not that important. There’s this thing that goes on to protect me from the intensity of her love. And that’s just like, Sometimes it seems so ridiculous, but I think it’s real. I think I really feel that it’s just like so intense. I think it’s very real, ⁓ particularly for men, you know. ⁓ And it’s that it’s that real capacity of wow, if I really let that in. You know, I see this in a lot of guys I work with, particularly who kind of stay with it for a while. You know, at first they come in and it’s all the challenges of life, and this is hard, and this is hard. And then there’s often a threshold moment where the biggest challenge in life becomes. How good can I let it get? Yeah. Like, how can I can I really let the love in from my spouse, from my kids, or my pride about what I’m creating in the world? I think some of that’s just tied to because man, if I ever let that in and it goes away though, right? I could I could I live? And you know, that’s kind of the the vulnerability of it of yeah, to fully let it in and to know it could go at any moment. Yeah. For all kinds of reasons. Yeah. But as you’re describing, I can almost feel the vulnerability of like, ugh. Yeah, it’s it’s interesting because it’s like, you know, I think about this with my wife. Like we’ve, you know, we’ve been together for twelve years, way past any relationship I’ve ever had. And like we were watching this movie a couple of weeks ago. And in the movie, the movie was kind of this strange almost kid horror movie, which is ended up not being so appropriate for my kids. But what was interesting about it was it was about this family and their mom had died. The mom had died. And they don’t get into the details of what happened. It’s just that she had passed and you knew that. And the way that the daughter was dealing with it and the way the son was dealing with it, the way dad was dealing with it. And it ended up becoming really a movie about grief. But I remember just like sitting there and I just started crying a little bit because I was like, the thought of losing this person feels so scary. And I imagine on some level, like as you’re describing it, that there’s some way in which I try to protect that by almost like keeping her a little bit away. So I have to fully feel how much I really deeply am connected and care for this person. Cause then I don’t have to feel the grief, which is all bullshit because even no matter what, I’m gonna feel it all anyway. So it’s like it’s like stupid. It doesn’t it doesn’t really help you. That’s right. That’s the kind of I just fallacy in a sense we fall for and that, you know, the the beauty of it, and I’m by no means a master of system, you know, I have my moments and I’m practicing those moments, you know, whether it’s a minute or two to just be like, ⁓ my fucking God. This, you know, my kids are like chasing each other, my wife’s over here, the dog’s barking, and I’m like, this is as good as it gets. Like, I mean, like if I really feel into this moment, this is an amazing moment and let it in. And I think it’s, you know, a great practice for men. You know, a lot of men’s work through the ages has been deeply tied to practices around death and being connected to dying. Because I think, right, there’s a direct correlation to the more ephemeral. We allow ourselves to realize it all is, it’s just gonna go right through your hands. You can’t hold on to any of it. Yep. Yeah. The more that kind of demands a certain presence. Yeah. Right. Because it’s like, ⁓ my God. Yeah. Like I I’m assuming I have all kinds of assumptions that there’ll always be another. Right. And I’m I’m not quite there yet, but I’m getting close where you know, I’ve very tall daughter. She’s only six, but I’m like, wow, it it’s getting hard for me to hold you, like to hold you. And I know that day, right, is gonna come where it’s like the last time I just kind of picked up my little girl. Yeah. When that day is, I don’t know. But like when I’m holding her now, I’m like, ⁓ my God, this is gonna be gone soon. Like, rah. When I allow myself to feel that grief of it’s not gonna be here forever. And it takes a certain capacity, you know, to go there that some days I’m not up for, other days I am. But as a practice to move towards that, I think you’re right. And sometimes it’s just too much. And we have to kind of titrate and close down a little bit and just yeah, that’s gonna be that’s gonna be a lot when that does happen, which it will for all of us, you know, people we care about the most. Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. I think that’s it. That’s like I think for some of the men I work with, that capacity to face these things is so hard. And on so many levels, they’re just, you know, and I don’t want to blame our culture, but there’s a way in which It seems like so unfair for men to be forced into these situations when they’ve been trained to be out of them in so many ways. Yeah. You know, which we all know about. But I think I think the thing that is really inspiring as I’m talking to you is this sense of like, I don’t know, like you s I think the thing that really caught me was that sense of how good can it get? How good can it get? I think that’s really a beautiful idea that I’m still sort of digesting right now. Like, yeah, like just the love, the the masculine love and being able to really receive that from other men. I’m curious. One of the things that comes up for me a lot and this is probably true in my own life is like this struggle for men and not not just in men’s groups, but just in life to formulate friendships, male friendships. And I wonder even in the in their groups, if that one of the things that comes up with some of my clients, I’m trying to like encourage and help them get out and meet other people, meet other men, because they they they’re showing up there very lonely and very alone. Mm-hmm. But I wonder about that sort of you talked about this earlier about that that sort of way in which men have a struggle to distinguish between love and physical love and sex. Like it’s almost like they don’t they don’t have they’re not two separate things. And so when men get close, there’s a way that that can feel a little unnerving and and almost they don’t know how to not sexualize it because they their only way of feeling loved is in a sexual context. And so I wonder if that comes up in your groups sometimes. Cause it has come up with some of my clients where I’m like trying to get them to meet guys and then they’re like, Yeah, I asked him. But then I was like so awkward because I was like, I want them to think I was like hitting on him or something. And I’m like, Yeah. Why wouldn’t you think it’s very real? It’s very real in our culture. So real. Yeah. I mean, you know, our our culture has changed a lot and there’s still strong homophobia in it, right? That gets layered in and then smashed together with, you know, all the features of the man box that do kind of through culture push into men like do it alone, be tough, don’t be vulnerable, don’t share. Men are competition. And, you know, some of it’s very real. Sometimes, yes, men are are threats, right? There are a lot of guys I work with in groups who men were the source of their deepest wounding. Bullying, fathers, whatever that might be. So just coming into a room with nine other male bodies already has them high on alert. Yeah. These are are real wounds that that some men carry. But then we also smash that into, yeah, our culture doesn’t teach men how to connect, right? Yeah, for for most guys, and you know, there’s a way we kind of make fun of it sometimes in media of like, you know, the guy who high school was as good as it got from and he never stops talking about those stories and those are his best friends forever or college. And I think part of what that ties into is that’s for a lot of men where their deepest relationships are formed. Yeah. And they never have an opportunity to do that again. And often what creates that is it’s a time. Where you have, how did I used to say this? It’s like you get to hang out and do nothing with each other. Yeah. Right. You have, you just have time to muck around, to mess up and explore and just waste time with each other. It’s a time often of a lot of mistakes being made. You’re learning new stuff, you’re dating, or there’s this, or you get fired from a job. And there’s a lot of bonding that happens in that. And then men get launched out of school and you know, they get on the escalator. ⁓ my God, I got to get the job now to get the house, to get the wife, to get the kids and do the thing. And the first thing that drops is that space to kind of explore and invest in those relationships. And then on top of that, most men just don’t have the tools or training to share their inner world. Yeah. Right. To go under the surface and actually talk about things. So, you know, I work with a lot of guys who. They actually do have male friends. We went out to the bars or we did our weekend. Yeah. But then they come home and they still feel lonely. And I had a guy who just did a ski trip. It’s like his closest friends from growing up, but they just don’t talk about things. Yeah. Right. There’s maybe, ⁓ you’re having a hard time right now, huh? And then it’s just boom. It’s just offlined. And that’s, I think, the default culture for a lot of men. And so I think what’s great about a men’s group is it allows us to to pierce under that. And so right now I got two kids. I’m entrepreneur. My wife’s an entrepreneur. Very busy. I have eight other guys here in my group in Colorado right now that I meet with. I could not see them all one on one as frequently as I do. Like it’s just not part of my life schedule right now. But twice a month, I get to spend very four very efficient hours catching up with these men and like building that rapport and even those little moments. And then, you know, we do the one on ones. When we can, but it becomes a very valuable way to keep growing those. And then, you know, we’ll go off for a weekend once or twice a year and it really deepens. So that yeah, that it’s a big challenge for guys. And a lot of the structures we used to meet other men in are just evaporating, right? They’re just going away. And so I think groups are, you know, fill this potentially huge hole for where do I go? And, you know, one of the reasons I moved back to Colorado was because my group was like, dude, you got a spot here if you want to come back. And you know, I’m I’m 45, I got two kids. The idea of moving somewhere where we had to start completely over with community. I was like, I I just I don’t have it in me. I barely have time to leave the house as is. And so getting to be in a circle like this, our community is my group’s community. Their spouses, their kids, it becomes in a way our extended family, right? We do the birthday parties, we do the thing, we do the Christmas party, we’re singing carols. Like it’s it’s a beautiful, like one of the highlights for me is having that layer. That’s kind of powered by those deep connections we make and learning to kind of go under the surface. You know, that’s last thing I’ll say around this, right? Is I think a lot of men historically, and again, you know, I’m talking kind of population level here, but men would bond going off and doing hard shit. War, building something, you name it, exploring, going to get some hunting. Like these, these were the things we would do. We’d go away, do something hard. And then we’d bond. And you know, there’s there’s some research around vasopressin and male receptors, and like we’re we’re kind of wired for it in some sense. And as the outer world, for at least those of us, you know, in places like this in the states, you know, first world, as the outer world becomes less dangerous, there’s less opportunities to do that. Yeah. What’s great about a men’s group is it’s the same energy. It’s just the unknown, challenging territory is the inner life. Yeah. Right? It’s when we turn that inside. ⁓ my God, this thing I inherited from my dad. I realize he got from his dad, and it’s a chain in my body, or this two-year-old, or this thing I keep doing with my kid and their thing. And those challenges become deeply meaningful to move through in community. And it bonds us, right? Yeah. Like it was certainly, I could speak for myself. It bonds me to my other men that they have witnessed me through some of the hardest moments of my life. And I through them. It’s a different kind of relationship because they see under the hood. Yeah. Right. They don’t see the social media. They see the, ⁓ my God, snot was coming out of my face. And I was a puddle of just collapse because I didn’t know what to do in my life. Yeah. But then I moved through it with their help. And that’s an incredible thing to get to experience, I think, with other guys and that that sense of facing the challenge and facing the unknown. It just it becomes in the interpersonal world in so many ways. And a group can really bond over that. Yeah. ⁓ I love all that. I love all that. As I’m sitting here, Jason, listening to you, I just wanted to reflect back. Like as I came into this, I was a little tired. I long day at work. And it’s just it’s interesting. Just even here we’re, you know, we’re in two different places. We’re doing this online. But just to be here with you is is just I feel this vitalization of my body of like, wow. It feels so good. It’s almost like what you’re saying. I am actually experiencing some of it in my in my life right now, in this or in this moment right now. And so I just I you know it’s like I’m kind of like double clicking on this of like, the shit works, guys. Who’s ever whoever’s out there listening right now? This shit works. Find a men’s group, get in and do it. It does. It really does. It’s real thing. And you know, guys, and there’s a stereotype, or are we gonna be drumming and crying and sometimes, yeah, but not all the time. What I tell guys is Honest to God, if no other reason, even if you’re just coming from that simple masculine place, you’re going to become more effective in life when you have a good group. Yeah. Because you’ll have a place to metabolize your pain, be held, be supported, slowed down, people to help you get clear around what’s really important for you. And it’s meaningful in that sense. It’s not just like a, ⁓ it’s like a support group kind of thing. It can change your life and the very real behaviors. You make, you know, in that, you know, I’ll tell a story about one of one of my guys. I think he’d be fine sharing it. There was a time he was like really struggling with something and he was the more withdrawn kind kind of guy, right? Always on the I don’t know if I’m gonna stay in the group, but kinda just used to being my own thing. He wasn’t fully in. And there was a time in his relationship, he was really in a dark place and he was like very lost. And he decided not to come to group. And one of the men noticed and, you know, just kind of messaged his partner and And they were like, Yeah, you know, he’s out there, he’s hurting right now, and I don’t know what to do. The group fucking got in the van, drove around town, found him, grabbed him, pulled him in, brought him to group, sat him down, and he just burst. Right. Just burst from the love. And from that moment on, he was in. I mean, he was in like, ⁓ I’m going to the grave now. Like, I wanted to do my thing, and you guys didn’t let me. And that It’s like a battery we get to plug into, right? Like I said, that love, that presence, that fuck, dude, you don’t have to do it all alone. None of us are perfect. We’re all struggling. Instead of pretending and putting on that kind of masculine Instagram face, it’s like, now just go under that. It’s hard. I fucked up this week. I want to do this, but I’m not doing it. I set this goal. I failed it. So much energy, just getting real, even just gets liberated in that process. So I’m so with you. Yeah. So I’ll put this in the show notes. I’ll put your website, evolutionary.men. That’s right. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So groups, there’s also some private. If they wanted to see you in private or something like some private coaching is possible in there as well. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Private coaching. I can point you towards men’s groups. You don’t even have to work with me. Just you know, I’m pretty plugged in at this point. You and I are share some networks and I’ll help you find something near you. It’s real and it works. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jason. I think that’s a good place to end. I just wanted to thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure to see you again. It’s been such a long time and just to listen to you and to hear about your experiences and what you’re bringing to the world. I just want to thank you for everything you’re doing out there. Thank you so much for having me and the deep service I know you do to so, so many men. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for listening today. Please take a moment to like and follow so we can continue to change the world by changing ourselves. Have a wonderful day.