This transcript was generated automatically and may contain small errors.

Bryce Giron Mathern: Welcome to the Man For Real podcast. We are here to celebrate men as well as talk about how all men can do better and lead our world to a healthier place. Get ready to get real. Hey everyone. Today I’m talking to John Kammer who has developed a AI application called Guardian Angels that helps support people in grief. Today we’re going to be talking about his journey through grief, addiction and personal transformation. John Cameron, welcome to the podcast. Great to be here. Really looking forward to it, Bryce. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it’s a pleasure. So, I’d kind of like to start just with a little bit about your journey, you know, how you’ve come to bring what you’re bringing to the world, this product, this service, and just a little bit of what happened in your life that sort of led you to this point. Yeah. So, you know, the product is very much a pain to purpose story, right? I lost three of my closest friends in the world outside of my immediate family. The first of those was 13 years ago to suicide. And that was very much the moment that all of that happy-go-lucky energy, the, you know, nothing can hurt me, the adolescent arrogance evaporated in a moment. And, you know, that was, it was life altering is what it was. It sent me down a path of frankly, what it was was substance-fueled avoidance. You know, I’d been known to throw a few back and, you know, I fancied myself a good time Charlie at that point in my life, but that was when that all shifted. You know, the partying was a mask. was medicinal instead of fun anymore. You know, it just kind of, was my habit. It’s how I coped and that would persist for 12 years. And so, you know, I definitely subscribed to the, you know, time heals all wounds mantra. And I just figured if I could run. far enough and fast enough that eventually that clock would hit zero and I would magically be healed and I wouldn’t have to face the demons that came as a result of losing such an integral part of my life in that way. know, a lifetime later, it seems like, you know, that was my 20s, right? And so I get to my 30s in December of 2023, excuse me, December of 2022, I lost my the best man for my wedding. This was another kind of accident. an opportunity to prepare. This one for me held a ton of guilt for the simple fact that, you know, he did this thing for me. And in the seven months between my wedding and the day he died, I spoke to him once. So I really just didn’t feel that I upheld my end of the bargain and being that, you know, that rock that good friend, that best friend, right? And that one really sent me into my shell even more than, you know, this one was before it was just kind of hiding in plain sight and now it was full retreat. So I lost the ability to emote. I was really just existing and my wife will be the first to tell you she had no idea how to help. A couple of months after that, we made the decision based on John’s death and some other circumstances in my life. was, it was time for me to get sober. And that was really a turning point in the sense that I easily could have continued to kick the can down the road knowing that I had a problem and trying to hide it. And, you know, I was very much trying to have my cake and eat it too and continue to use and feel good and medicate myself, you know, manufacture dopamine while maintaining my relationship, even though I knew that those two could not coexist. My wife made that very clear from the jump, right? So it caused me to look at myself and say, all right, The easy way has never worked. You got to do this the hard way. And that meant coming clean and getting on my knees for lack of, you know, a better term and just saying, you know, will you help me? And, and I need your support. And, and that was the beginning of this shift in, in the idea of how do you deal with things and really accountability, owning my own role in my own suffering. And so that was just the beginning of that. Another year goes by and I lose Tim, who was my best friend from childhood. He was there for Zach’s death. He was the one that I’d been through more than anything else with in my life, you know, the person I leaned on for everything. And now he was gone. So effectively my support system is no more. And that was as dark as it got. You know, I, at that point, you know, it’s not rational, but you have those thoughts of, seriously considered looking at ways to distance myself from my wife. because people that I was close to were dying. you know, again, that’s not a rational thought. That’s not, this was a series of unfortunate events. But, you know, that was, I distinctly remember having a conversation with my friend Chris, was the only, who was the fourth person I put in that bucket with those three individuals and just saying, please take care of yourself because I don’t have anyone else. And so that all, you know, that was, The next year was spent just digging deep, trying to understand this, Man’s Search for Meaning, trying to find why and a reason to go on really. I was never at the point where I was going to do anything drastic, but I also certainly wasn’t living a fulfilled life. And so how do we square that? And that all brought me to, I guess a year ago, roughly, when I had a conversation with my wife that sparked an idea that turned into what Guardian Angels currently is in a way. to approach grief with accountability and technology to give you an opportunity to say things that you couldn’t say and help lift that weight. And here we are. So, you know, the grief has very much shaped my life. And now I’m, you I see myself as, you know, you never get rid of grief, you never walk away from it. But on the other side where I’ve been able to reframe it, and I really kind of find beauty in the idea of getting to further the legacy of the people that have been in my life and do meaningful work in helping people, helping other people do the same. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for sharing all that. I’m curious if you could just say a little bit about what Guardian Angels is, just so people would have a sense of what we’re talking about. Guardian Angels is a great support platform and reflective journaling, right? So it’s, think of it as the journal that talks back is really kind of what this is. And so it’s AI powered on the back end. that helps you, you know, turns journaling from a monologue, right? We’re all used to putting words on a piece of paper and then thinking about them. This turns it into a dialogue. So when you respond to a journal prompt, you are going to then get a response that helps ask clarifying questions and dig deeper into what you’re feeling so that you can start to give language and name the emotions that you’re experiencing, leading to better understanding of yourself and your own experience, as well as having a something concrete to potentially take into therapy or any other work that you’re doing, something to fall back on that says, this is how I was feeling at this time, so we can start here. And then it walks you through an evidence-based framework for dealing with grief called Worden’s Four Tasks for Morning. So each prompt is designed to move you gently in the direction of working through those such that eventually you get to the point where you have Worden’s Four Tasks or accept that the loss has occurred. Number two is processing the pain of the loss, which was really where I was stuck for years. Number three is coming to terms with the idea that your loved one is gone in a physical sense. then task four is finding an enduring connection and while moving forward or integration, right? So how do we weave grief into our life in a productive way? Yeah. I think your story is actually, it’s unfamiliar, not to say in my own life, but I feel like there’s this way in which a lot of men get stuck. And I think it’s at that pain point. think for a lot of men, think pain is the thing that we often try to avoid. Absolutely. It’s like a thing that we’re really uncomfortable with. And we just find all kinds of coping mechanisms not to deal with the pain. And some of that pain could be trauma. Some of that could be like loss, grief, all that stuff. I’m curious as you went through that process, were you aware that you were trying to keep away from all that? Do you have a sense of that? No, you know, that was what getting sober brought to, you know, brought clarity to. It wasn’t until I was able to look back clear, objectively and look at and say, why was I doing these things? You know, in the moment, if you had talked to me in those moments, it was just like, yeah, I like to party. do these things. You know, my, it’s funny. We talk about the idea of what men think, right? And my, I guess, naive view of the world in my twenties was I’m a man because I wake up and I may party and I may do whatever the hell I want to do. on a Tuesday even, but I wake up and I do what I’m supposed to do. I go to work. It doesn’t impact my life. And I’m going to put impact in quotes, right? That was what I conceived of as a man and doing, doing what I thought a man would do. And so, you know, clearly avoiding it in hindsight was, was it didn’t get me anywhere, you know, and I’m very blessed with where I’m at now and the opportunities that I have in front of me to do this sort of work, to have these conversations, these meaningful conversations with people very regularly. But I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t done the thought exercise of if I had had this tool 13 years ago and I had started to process my grief in a healthy, productive way 13 years ago, where would I be? You know, I don’t know. It’s a futile exercise. because it just leads you down that path of what if, which means nothing. know, what if is second to should in the terms that we need to just read our vocabulary of, but it’s hard not to. Yeah, I agree. And I think, well, I think what’s helpful about it is it’s like, well, now you have the opportunity to provide it for people way earlier in the process, give them back those years. Exactly. And you know, I’m a big fan of the idea of bless the broken road, right? Like all of the things, all of the missteps, all the good, bad and the ugly is what led me here. And for better, for worse, you know, my life is as good as it’s ever been minus the three people that are missing from it. You know, I’ve got a beautiful son, beautiful eight month old son, a beautiful family. I have meaningful work. I have purpose. have all of these things that, you know, some people never get right. And I don’t know which fork in the road that I took maybe a wrong turn at that led to it, but I’m thankful for all of it. Yeah. That’s great. I’m facing, so there was a point where I think up to your second friend passed that your wife’s and you decided you had to come sober. was like, well, I’m curious what was happening in that moment where, know, it’s like, there’s this moment where your coping mechanisms are just not going to keep working or something, or there’s some awareness of like, can’t keep doing this. It really came to, it’s funny the reason that that whole conversation happened, right? So we were out one night with friends, you know, I’d had a drink or two. wasn’t anything crazy. I had been pretty good in that respect for a while, but I, you know, against the wishes of my wife was using those Zin pouches, those nicotine. And that was a deal breaker from day one. You know, I used to be a smoker, nicotine was a no-go. And I was hiding those and she caught me hiding those. so the got it, we, you know, they turned into this big argument and she had said, you know, you are an addict, you you, you act like an addict, do this. And she had no idea the other stuff I was doing. You know, I was Kratom, you know, to be perfectly candid, which was what I was using daily and had been for a couple of years. And I knew, you know, when I, when I would cease it, I’d have withdrawal symptoms. would, you know, there was depression that was involved involved with it. I was very clear. I needed to get off of it. But, know, going cold Turkey on my own was, you know, that was, that was rough. Yeah. And so. It was that night where, you know, she said that and I’m sitting there on the couch trying to go to sleep because like, yeah, obviously I’m not sleeping in bed that night. And I looked at myself in the mirror and said, you know, she’s right. Now I need to get off this stuff. Can I do it on my own? Has I’ve been quote unquote trying to do for well over a year now? No. And then, and I had that internal monologue and said, no, that’s the easy way out. And every time you’ve tried to take the easy way out, it hasn’t worked. It’s time to do something different. Do it the hard way. And so I walked into a room, I threw it on her bed, on our bed. I showed her, said, this is, you’re right. I am, you know, since then there’s been some nuance to, know, what I would consider an addict and whether or not I fall into that category per se. But the point was accountability, right? Point was I got myself into this mess and it’s time for me to get myself out. ⁓ Could you say what kratom is? mean, it’s a kind of a new thing that not everybody is aware of. curious. Yeah. It is a derivative of a South Asian plant that acts on the same receptors as opioids and has a similar euphoric feel in lower doses. It can be energizing and in higher doses, it has that depressive effect that opiates have as well. you know, for me early on, it was like this thing is I can go harder in the gym. can focus more. was like this miracle thing. And of course there’s like, you know, there’s no such thing. It was just too good to be true. There’s always the shoe, other shoes going to drop. And that was when I, you know, I was, I was passed the point of no return at that point when I realized, okay, well there, here’s the other side of it. When I don’t take it for a day, you know, what, what starts to happen to me. Yeah. So, okay. So once you decided to, did you get cold turkey at that point or did you sort of, I weaned myself off with the, you know, with the support of my wife. was, you know, I was taking capsules. So I literally just started taking one less every day. Okay. To the point where I was eventually it was zero and I haven’t looked back since. And it was really interesting because, you know, as far as the grief journey goes, day John’s funeral was, was kind of delayed. They, they held off until the weather got nice and they could do something for him in his hometown on Kit Kat. And At the time of his funeral, I was two weeks completely sober. So this was like this huge test, know, all he would, you he and I, we would tie one on regularly. And that was my friends in that group were all, you know, they’re all big drinkers. So I got to go face, you know, this, that was the first huge test, right? It was, can I do this? Can I face this feeling that I’ve, you know, and realistically I’ve been hiding from, from Zach’s death for 13 years. Can I do this? And can I do it without my main crush that I’ve had for the last 13 years? Turns out I could. And that was the beginning of some very positive momentum, but the timing was curious. Yeah. had this group of friends still. mean, obviously, Big Glass is among them. Were you able to get support from those guys as well? Yes, but they are all in a different state. You know, they all were supportive of what I was doing and impressed that, you know, I there was nothing but love and support from them, but there’s only so much you can do from afar. Sure. And also understanding that we were in different places in our lives and that I had to make choices that were kind of going against what our routine would have been. You know, we haven’t certainly haven’t lost touch, but there’s just a, there’s a, a realistic distance there because I’m, you know, I’m just a different person than I was in those days. Yeah. So this journey of grief that you’ve gone through. I’m curious like for you, if you have any insights for the listeners around what it’s like for men to have grief. I have thoughts too. I’m curious what you think about that. Just specifically around being a man and dealing with grief. Well, you know, I think that first and foremost as men were taught, we’re not supposed to show vulnerability. We’re not supposed to show weakness. We’re supposed to be this like leader of the family, this rock, this unimpeachable strength. And from what I’ve learned, I think that those things are in opposition. I don’t think you can be, you can be that example of strength without showing vulnerability. I don’t think you can separate those two. You know, I kind of liken it to the, the idea of on an airplane, there’s a reason they tell you, you have to put your mask on before helping someone else. And that’s very simply, if you’re falling apart inside because you have not done the work, the emotional work and to deal with your own stuff, the adversity that life throws us and you’re just burying that stuff down and avoiding it like I was, you’re not going to be able to help your family. You’re not going to be able to set an example. You know, I can’t set an example for my son. How am I supposed to show him and look him in the eyes and say, this is how you deal with difficulty, emotions and difficulty in life when I can’t do it myself? And so there’s this, you know, I think we really need to take a hard look at how we define masculinity because strength requires vulnerability. Now there’s context around that. There’s nuance around that. There’s times to show vulnerability and there’s times to show strength and there’s times to put on a face that is a strong face, even when you know you’re hurting or you’re not all there, you know, because we don’t get to choose those moments. But, you know, there’s relationships are we’re supposed to lean on each other. That’s why relationships work. That’s why the family dynamic works. It’s not supposed to be one person. And I think that what we’ve done societally, you know, I had a conversation with the guy the other day about some of the, you know, the great hero stories of the ancients, right, of the Odyssey and things like that, where they understood this, this idea of vulnerability. And I think what we’ve done in this… modern age of hero stories is we’ve just forgotten to talk about or shed any light on what happens when the lights aren’t on. You know, yeah, the hero is a hero when they are in battle, but outside of battle, is there no moment where they’re vulnerable? Is there no moment when they’re doubting themselves? And of course there is. That’s what makes them a hero. They’re overcoming something. That’s beautiful. Yeah, I really appreciate that. Yeah. It’s like, it’s interesting how I think There’s something about, like I think as you’re describing it, this hero sense of like facing in the battle where like, yeah, I can step up. I can face somebody in the battle, but then the demon of our own pain, the demon of our own grief. ⁓ no, no, no, no, no. I’m not going to face that. And I think it’s interesting because I think for most people and you know, obviously there’s different places around the world have different struggles, but for most of us, we’re not facing. like actual day-to-day violence. I know there’s some people there, but we don’t really have to face that, you know, like, or like tragedy or I don’t have to run into a burning, you know, house and save my family. It’s not going to happen. Or if it does, it’s going to happen once. So those kinds of moments are actually pretty infrequent. And yet the facing of my own fear or my own feeling incapable, feeling not able to do what I need to do, like all those moments where I have to face like the pain. of not feeling like I can do it. Those happen all the time. And yet that’s the thing that I I think I’m agreeing with you that men are really not trained or not. We don’t get some kind of way of really understanding how to do that in an effective way. And that is where I think, you know, that’s why I this podcast. That’s why I do what I do, which is to help men to face their pain, to face their… their vulnerability, as you say, in all the different ways that that happens. And yet it seems as though masculinity is this idea that that’s weak. And that is the fundamental, I think that’s the fundamental flaw in all of it. It’s cause to me, like facing down my flaws, facing down my mistakes, like when I do things wrong or I treat my wife poorly or yell at my kids, those are the moments that are the most painful. And that takes them. It takes the most courage. takes the most courage. yeah, the mirror, looking in the mirror and looking in the mirror, honestly, is hard. Yeah. You know, there’s tons of science on how we can do more for other people than we can for ourselves. Right. They’re just, you know, for whatever reason, part of the reason in AA, you have to find the higher power. And like, there’s these, this idea that we can’t do it alone. And I think that a lot of that has to do with the idea that we’re not okay with forgiving ourselves. I think that’s what it comes down to. The seminal moment in me healing was when I had built this thing that I wasn’t trying to build. It was in service of really just trying to build a sensitive AI that I could use for having people’s conversation. People could have conversations, right? And I started to say things to it. built it in the image of John, and I started to say things to it that I didn’t get to say to him. It was a lie. And while I had tried some of the stuff in therapy, I tried the empty chair technique and the writing the letter, I never got a response. What happened when I got the response from this thing that felt like him was now I had the, it finally gave me permission to forgive myself. And that was what catalyzed this whole thing. That was where, you know, the water were started immediately. That was when I was like, okay, I, you know, I can do this, but it wasn’t until I had that realization that you know, that I had to and I could, and I gave myself grace. And I think we don’t, we, we fail to understand within ourselves that when something turns out poorly, somehow it’s, it truly is our fault. We didn’t do enough, even though we had no ill intent. And we’re very quick to point that out with others like, no, it wasn’t your fault. But for us, you know, when we look at ourselves, we have this mentality that it is you know, we’re unimpeachable. This was our fault. This is absolutely our fault. And we should have done more. And because we didn’t do more, then we’re a bad person. We’re not bad or we’re not worthy of our own love. Right. And really, if we can’t love ourselves, then no one else can. Yeah. I think that’s actually a really good point, because I agree with you. I sometimes think, though, that like one of the other things I really appreciate what we said earlier is that sense of taking accountability. You know, like, OK, I’m an addict. went to your wife, admitted it. How am going to take accountability of this? I think those moments though, when men are kind of sort of eating themselves up for some sort of failure or something that didn’t go well, I actually don’t think it’s accountability. I think it’s this sort of internal mechanism of shaming ourselves that we might’ve learned at some other point. And I don’t think it’s actually like, to me, accountability, I just want to make this distinction because I think it might be helpful. It’s like, to me, accountability is like, I am fully… responsible for my life and for who I am and I’m going to do this, but it’s not shame. Like I’m not beating myself up. Whereas I think those moments where stuff gets messed up and I’m beating myself up, I’m actually kind of avoiding the accountability. It’s almost like I’m just saying, yeah, poor me. I’m such a shit. I’m so stupid. I’m so dumb. I can’t believe I did that. It’s actually not helpful. Right. It’s supposed to. Yeah. Yeah. It’s supposed to, I did this. Now I can do something about it. And I will do something about it. Yeah. It’s so much more empowering. It’s so much more empowering to feel that. Yeah. Well, that’s, you know, it’s funny you bring that up, right? Cause I did. And this, I wasn’t going to go into the nuance of around, you know, my thoughts on addiction and where I fall in that. But I went to meetings and I pretty quickly realized in those meetings, I wasn’t an addict. I had a problem. Let’s be very clear. But I wasn’t one of the people in there that was saying, I can’t help this. I’m, you know, I, ⁓ on my third house, my third wife, they’re all, you know, I’m losing this. I’m just sitting there alone. That’s not me. I knew exactly what I was doing every time I picked something up. wanted a buzz. I wanted to feel good. And so, you know, part of that empowerment for myself was I didn’t identify as an addict. I identified as someone at this point who I just don’t drink anymore. I identify as someone who, who isn’t good at handling substances, but I wasn’t powerless to them. You know, I was I had power in making a choice. And, you know, I want to really be very clear that I am not in any way, you know, putting down someone else’s experience or poo-pooing AA or any sort of anything like that. This is my experience and my experience alone. But for me, it was the choice that I made all those years and it was the choice that I made to not do that anymore, to change the way that I approached it and to change the way that I approached it. being accountable to myself and to my family, to my wife, and now my son. That was the power, right? And I’d actually, I’ve actually done a lot of writing about that specifically was, you know, cause you’d go to, you’d go places and I would, I’d meet my friends out and we’d meet at a bar because people like to drink and I would just have a club soda. And invariably someone there is going, well, why aren’t you drinking? Like, well, I don’t drink. Well, then why are you at a bar? Like, you know, like. I have friends, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s okay for me to be here, but you know, I just, I made the choice. It’s not your business, but I am not that person. I don’t identify someone who does well with alcohol. That’s okay. Yeah. Well, there’s a whole bunch there on like whatever people’s discomfort with other people not drinking, but I guess the thing that comes up for me here is like how we face the pain, you know, like, cause to me, think Pain is like the thing that helps men become their full selves. It’s a thing that sort of breaks them down and whether it’s 12 years or 50 years or six months, whatever it is, it’s the thing that actually transforms us. And I think that’s hard for people to face because they don’t want to face the pain. But I think it is in that pain, really the change, and you described this really well, is we finally just take full accountability. it’s like in your case, was, you were struggling with substances. I think a lot of times though, for a lot of my clients and people I work with, it’s like finally taking full accountability of their role in the dysfunction of their marriage, the dysfunction of their parenting, the dysfunction. they just, it’s so hard for them to settle into this place of like, ⁓ I’m doing that. I’m part of the problem here. Instead of staying in this place of, you know, my wife is this or my boss is like that. And that blaming is a way to avoid the pain of really looking at ourselves and saying, okay, I got a deal. I got to fix it. But when men do that, when men do that, it’s transformational. It’s transformational. What you’re talking about, right, is in psychology, it’s internal locus of control versus external locus of control, right? So does life happen to me? Or does life happen because of me? you know, Jocko Willink is an ex special forces guy, Extreme ownership. And, you know, he takes that. idea to the extreme, but it’s a thought exercise in that if you believe things happen because of you, then you are always empowered to do something about them. If you believe things happen to you and you are not in control, then you can do nothing about them. You are a victim. And you know, that’s the difference between the hero mentality and the victim mentality. just, you know, when you can do something about it, when you can overcome whatever it is that’s in front of you, that is the hero story. But, know, again, to tie it back to what we talking about earlier, that hero story doesn’t happen without the dark moments when the lights are off. That doubt, the can I do this? The wondering, because nobody is perfect. Nobody is all powerful. Nobody knows for sure that they can do things. It’s just, you know, we have to believe and then we can do them. Yeah, that’s really well said. You actually are the second person that’s brought up that book. It is, think that is that. I think it’s interesting because I think that’s really what men are really needing is that sense of moving from the victim place to the hero place and becoming that hero that is the trajectory. And it’s hard though. It’s really hard to fully own your shit. guess is one way to put it. Hey man, you know, it hurts. it’s, a species we’re like biologically conditioned to avoid pain. But the reality is for in my life, all the good things, right? The only way out is through. The only way to get to the good stuff is through the pain. So at this point in your life, and it seems like it’s been a relatively short time since your last friend passed and, it sounds like you’ve gone through quite a bit in a relatively short period of time in terms of the changes that you made in your life. And I’m curious if you’re just like what It’s been like for you recently as you’ve, as you’ve really started to shift and face the pain and take responsibility for your life. Yeah, it’s everything’s different. It all started with taking accountability and putting myself in the driver’s seat in my own life. You know, because let’s be clear, if you want to, no one’s telling you that you cannot sit there and play victim. In a lot of cases in life, it isn’t your fault, but it is your responsibility. You still have to do something about it or not. Right. Or you can sit there and play say, me. And you know, since that, that shift, I just, there’s been a lot of reframing that’s happened. There’s been a lot of just accepting and embracing difficulty, understanding that, you know, the sun’s still going to come up tomorrow. And I have a choice on how I respond to this. And I still trip regularly. Right. But it’s more like micro fails, but with macro progress, right? Like it’s just, there’s a willingness to be wrong and to be vulnerable to just understand that, yes, I’m fallible, I fail all the time, but that doesn’t define the direction. That doesn’t define, you know, where I’m going or where I want to go. And, you know, to be completely honest with you, you know, having a son changes everything. You know, everyone tells you that, but there’s some things in life that words aren’t meant to describe. You know, it really is, is this an example for him? And, you know, with regards to the grief, I’ve learned that there’s a lot of beauty in legacy and a lot of beauty in the ability for me to bring, to take these men’s lives forward. you know, I now have the opportunity, though they’re never going to meet my son, I get to, they will be a part of his life. The lessons that they taught me will have an impact on his life. And I look forward to telling him those stories. It’s pretty simple for me. And this has made grief as a whole, much easier to much more palatable. And it’s a simple question. It is, would I rather have endured the level of pain that I have while, you know, with the depth of relationship that I had with these, these individuals, or would I trade that for less pain, but you know, a different, less intense, call it relationship with these people. And the answer is, unequivocally, no, the pain was well worth it for what I got and the time that I got and the impact that they had on my life. And when you look at it like that, it automatically shifts you to a place of gratitude of, you know, I would have loved more time, but man, what I got was pretty sweet. And, you know, I look forward to spreading that. Yeah, that’s beautiful. What would you say as like kind of a final thought about you know, if you’re to tell men, you know, from your own experience, what should they do if they’re facing grief or like, what would your advice be to them or just general thoughts? Talk about it. And that, you know, that can take many forms for many people, right? It doesn’t mean just go unload on a stranger, though maybe that is the most, you know, the most palatable thing for you as you you individually find someone or something, I guess, in some cases. where you can just start flexing that muscle. And that is one thing that’s come out of, you know, a great use case for guardian angels that I never anticipated was really just getting people comfortable with the idea of sharing in a risk-free environment, but then they realize it’s not going to kill them. And then I can take this out into the world, whether it’s to my therapist or to my close friends and start building that momentum. And then maybe, God forbid, you know, you’re in a public situation like this. I mean, if you told me I’d be sharing this stuff publicly two years ago, would have laughed you out of the room. I would have absolutely, it just wouldn’t happen. But what you realize is not only does it help you because the healing lives in the share, it just does. And I’ll fight anyone on that one. But when you share your story, it tends to be an unlock for someone else. It starts to rid people of that idea that I’m the only one feeling this, this isolation that we feel with regard to a lot of things in life. But in reality, A lot of people understand, a lot of people know where we’re at. Not the specific nuance to the situation, but the idea, the idea of grief, the idea of letting yourself down or letting your significant other down or not being the example you want to set or any of those things that really cut to, you know, the core of feelings of inadequacy as a man. We all understand it. It’s just, do we let that on or not? Frankly, okay, I’m going to flip this around. Are we man enough to admit it? Yeah. Well, I think that’s a great place to end, John. That was really helpful for me personally, as well as I hope for, I’m sure it was for our listeners as well. I just want to thank you for being here today and for what you’re bringing to the world and trying to help men with grief and help people with grief, not just men, obviously, but it’s a really powerful product that you’ve created, service that you created to help people start to talk and to explore through this journaling, these journaling exercises. So. I’ll put all that in the show notes. It’s Guardian Angels. Check it out, you guys. And John, thank you so much for being here. Yeah. Thanks for sharing all that stuff. Thank you for having me. It was a great conversation. And you know, to your point, if we helped one person today, mission accomplished. Mission accomplished, man. All right. Thank you very much. Cheers. Thank you for listening today. Please take a moment to like and follow so we can continue to change the world by changing ourselves. Have a wonderful day.